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Conversation between Rachel Thomson (original WRAP researcher) and a group at The Proud Trust, Manchester.
Transcript of a conversation between Rachel Thomson (original WRAP researcher) and a group of young women and youth workers at an LGBT+ young women’s group at The Proud Trust, Manchester.
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| Description |
In 2019-2020 the ESRC funded 'Reanimating data: experiments with people, places and archives'. Part of the project involved staging a series of reanimations using data from interviews with young women from Manchester, conducted thirty years previously as part of the Women, Risk and AIDS Project (WRAP 1988-1990). Each reanimation involved a collaboration between young women, educators and researchers and used creative methods to explore the WRAP data and bring it to life in new ways. During a series of workshops led by Ali Ronan, artist and youth worker Hebe Phillips and youth workers at the Proud Trust, a LGBT+ young women's group, where young women took part in games and activities exploring and reusing some of the WRAP data that related to lesbian or queer desires, relationships and identities. The workshops took place in Manchester (UK) between November 2019 and March 2020.
This item is a transcription of a recorded group discussion between researcher Rachel Thomson and a group of LGBT+ young women and youth workers at The Proud Trust. The group had been working with data from the Women, Risk and AIDS Project for the past 5 weeks and in this session were meeting the original interviewer (Rachel) for the first time. Rachel shares some photos from 1989 and the group discuss Section 28 and the politics of Manchester in the late '80s. Youth workers reflect on some of the challenges of working with the original data and the young women offer possibilities for further work with the interviews. The young women ask about the impact that WRAP had at the time; feminism, how it has changed over the last thirty years and what it means to the young women today; sex education and heteronormativity; the internet as an important driver of social change in the last 30 years; intergenerational differences; attitudes towards sex; masturbation and what it means to be a 'grown up'. The group end by evaluating what they have learnt though the project with many saying that they feel that nothing has changed for young women. |
| Identifier |
TPT02/O
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| Date |
02/12/2019
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| Contributor |
Ester McGeeney, Rosie Gahnstrom
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| Creator |
The Proud Trust
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| Publisher |
Reanimating Data Project
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Text
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| Temporal Coverage |
2020
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| Spatial Coverage |
Greater Manchester, UK
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| Rights |
CC BY-NC 4.0
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| extracted text |
Transcription of a conversation between Rachel Thomson (researcher) and a group of young women
and youth workers at an LGBT young women’s group at The Proud Trust, Manchester for the Reanimating data project. This conversation took place in December 2019 as part of the Reanimating data project. Linked audio file name: Proud Trust Dec 2nd 2019 Transcribed by: Type out outsourcing typing service. Key: In bold: Rachel Thomson (researcher and Reanimating data project team member) Not in bold: Group participant (youth worker / young woman at The Proud Trust) AR – Ali Ronan (former youth worker and member of the Reanimating data project team) YW – Youth worker The name of all youth women and youth workers who participated in this group have been changed and are in CAPS. All names in CAPS refer to young women in the group, unless otherwise indicated. 1 1 2 I thought I would show you some photographs of me when I was 23, the age that I was doing the study. This is me and my mates, it’s like 1980- 3 I’ve got to identify you? 4 This bottom one I’ve got that as well. 5 No. 6 No! 7 That one with the red hair? This one? 8 Your face isn't up properly, we can’t tell. 9 10 I’ll pass it round. Then this is the research team; that was probably the time. This is in Manchester. 11 You were quite pretty when you were young. 12 This is the whole of the research team, I was the young one. I thought you would like to see. 13 The hair, oh my God the hair! 14 That was before I came to Manchester that’s when I lived down, where I live now actually. 15 Not in London? 16 No, on the south coast, Brighton. 17 I have a friend who lives in Seaford. Where do you live? 18 Lewes, it’s just up the road. 19 Lewes castle, none of it is there but it’s still gorgeous. 20 21 I thought you might find these just interesting, these are just things from the archive, from the time that we’re doing the research. This is for HIV and Aids which were- 22 I know what I think, there’s a lot more resources then than there is now. 23 45% of people now don’t know that HIV can be transmitted between heterosexual sex. 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 I think you talked about Section 28 before as a thing that happened, it’s very similar to the No Outsiders thing at the moment but back to front, so you know with the No Outsiders that in the school they are teaching equality to be in line with the Equalities Act 2010, so they’re teaching books where there are same sex parents as a matter of course and that’s the cause of the controversy, whereas in Section 28 it was the same thing, same kind of book, but it was not the state that was doing it, it was those teachers, so it’s kind of weirdly reversed. But this is a lovely image of young people in Manchester campaigning. So when the march happened, I think 20,000 people marched first time ever they had been there. There had been a march about LGBT, I guess there had been like the Gay Liberation Front, but nothing of the same kind; this is one similar, same year from the Olden Bill which is about abortion, so feminism was really happening. 2 34 35 This one is interesting just in terms of, so this is like an advert for condoms where you would have to send away mail order to get your condoms. 36 37 What they were doing at Pride though, they were giving away packs in the pubs and stuff, in the bathrooms they were giving away packs. 38 39 Could you imagine a time when you couldn’t get them, I just think in terms of the really different moments. 40 I remember this bookshop. 41 42 43 44 45 46 There’s lots about nightclubs and things like that you might be interested in some of them but just to take us back, which is partly because I thought you might just want to ask some questions and try to take us back there a bit to get the feeling of it. On any Wednesday there would be about 10-15 groups going on in Manchester meeting about politics or censorship or feminism or vegetarianism or whatever and I don’t know, I can’t believe it’s like that, it was full of, the city was full of politics. 47 This is where I’m going to end up one day. 48 What, classified? 49 That was just a random, I would actually be the (inaudible; over-talking 00:06:12) sexy male. 50 Oh weird. 51 What’s that? 52 It’s Wales. 53 54 55 56 Is it in Wales? There you go. I think that march of 20,000 people was a really historic moment because I don’t think anybody had any clue that that many people would come out together to do it, it was 1988, it was a complete shock to the establishment. So they had done this policy which was supposed to be really repressive and actually (inaudible; over-talking 00:07:00). 57 What does BSI stand for? 58 59 60 61 62 It’s like the kite mark, actually it’s the kite mark we call now, it’s been tested, it has no holes in it. It’s what we call now Clause 28, so it was a law that basically made it illegal for local authorities to promote homosexuality as a pretended family unit. Which is now illegal to not do that. It was for years and it got bigger and bigger and bigger, but Manchester was when the first march happened, so it was a really important city for that. 63 AR: It was only fairly recently appealed? 64 YW: I think about 15 years ago. 65 66 67 There’s quite nice things like nightclubs as well. Anyway, I just thought you might want to ask me questions; I know you’ve been looking at some of the interviews, is that right, from back then? I’m really happy to answer any questions or have a conversation about- 68 AR: So what have you thought about the interviews that we’ve been looking at? 3 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 YW: Okay, I think the idea of the interviews obviously back in the day were fantastic. I think the idea was wonderful, I think the idea of re-visiting them 30 years later is really , really, good but, and there is a but, I think I know they done it in different groups and this young woman’s group is a really political, really forward, really vocal and I think for me it would have been helpful to have some proper guiding on how we looked at it and how we compared. So we’ve done some really interesting things, we’ve had some really good discussions, we’ve looked at some of the interviews, we’ve discussed them and we’ve picked things out, but I think having some structure in it just to compare like for like, literally this is the interview or pulling specific things out of the original ones and then covering them again now, I think would have been more constructive so you had something positive, tangible that you could compare them. 79 80 81 82 83 84 AR: We tried last week, didn’t we, to look at some of the questions, how you might ask the questions now, but in a way that didn’t work because the questions only relate to the interview. So if you start with the question the minute somebody gives you a different answer you’re going down a different… For me it’s been interesting because we’ve tried lots of different things like chopping them up, doing random stuff, the first week not quite acting them out but looking at it. Perhaps I was trying really hard not to give a structure to see what happened. What do you feel? 85 86 87 88 I don’t know how this was meant to play out, but I think if they’d actually been (inaudible 00:11:45) because that’s what I thought was going to happen going in, not just looking up the interviews. The (inaudible 00:11:57) compared it to ourselves and then someone had all the interview questions and they asked us individually those questions and then maybe recorded it all. 89 That would be really good to do. 90 91 92 93 That’s something I would really like to do. Just looking at interviews, say for example sex education, it’s the same, you don’t learn anything or, for me when I was at school, I didn’t learn anything whatsoever, I needed people there. And for example I’m a Bengali woman and my experience was completely different from a lot of the people that were there. 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 So you mean more diversity in the group of women. One of the things we really learnt by doing the re-visiting is how Manchester has changed in terms of, interesting- I had a conversation about religion because when we first did this study here we did part of it in London and that was really different, it was much more diverse, the group. But the majority of young women we talked to when we did the work in Manchester 30 years ago were white British but probably mostly Catholic as well, and being Catholic then really mattered, I don’t know if it mattered to what people’s beliefs were but it really mattered to things like attitude towards abortion, whether they got any sex-ed at school, because at a Catholic school probably didn’t. Whether they could talk to their parents and whether their parents expected them to get married, so all those things were still shaped largely by religion 30 years ago in a way that maybe aren’t now. I would say maybe for different groups, so people from maybe Asian backgrounds, South Asian backgrounds, that’s still the expectation, the expectation will be that you will be married and there will be an expectation that you will be a virgin and virgin meaning a very particular thing is still the case for large groups of young people now, but maybe different groups than it was in the past. 108 109 A lot of the groups where we’ve done the research this time or shared the research we’ve been worried that the research is too much about sex; it feels like it’s really explicit about sex. 110 (Inaudible 00:14:39)- 4 111 I think there’s quite different interviews as well in terms of what it was possible to talk about. 112 113 I didn’t feel we were properly looking at the interviews, it was like the interview was there and we were asked to look for something specific rather than compare it to our environment and experiences. 114 115 116 117 118 119 What we could do, I’m really happy to, one of the things we did the other day with another group is they chose some questions from the original interview that they would have liked to have to themselves and they did a bit of work around that and then I came up and interviewed them starting with the question they had chosen, so it was a way in using the original material and then asked them why they chose that one, what that meant for them, and that went really well and it was a really nice thing to do. 120 121 122 123 Mostly we were asking each other, not a selection of interviews or anything, we were told to use what was already on the page and ask those same questions, but those questions were personalised to the interviewee, so you sort of had to change it a bit if you could. The questions already were a bit hard and you’re not an interviewer and are not used to doing that. (Inaudible 00:16:05). 124 125 And that would be something that it would be more comfortable to do one to one rather than in a group? 126 I think so. Some people might say (inaudible 00:16:19). 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 I actually did 15 interviews in one evening last time I was up here, they were kind of amazing in a weird way, just each one was about 5 minutes but in that 5 minutes we kind of talked almost about everything, because they had been working with the material in groups a bit like you have, and then they’d chosen something that meant a lot to them and so we just like re-voiced it and then we talked about why they had chosen that and it was really condensed, so people told their stories in the way they wanted to really quickly but it felt okay, like normally I would be really worried about doing something, wouldn’t feel safe to do something so fast if you see what I mean, but it did actually feel okay doing it in that way. But we can do that. I don’t know if you want to do that this evening, I don’t know what your thoughts are on plans. 136 YW: What’s anybody else got to say on thoughts about what we’ve done, how it went? 137 Is it like an academic project? 138 139 140 141 It is. It’s funded by the Research Council and it’s really funded as much as anything else around the method, so we’re proposing that the idea of taking an old study and bringing it into the present and engaging with young people is a way of researching social change, so it’s like an experiment in a method but it’s researched. 142 143 You know the original study that you did, do you think that’s had any sort of impact, not just on the young women but on the whole world, kind of thing? 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 I think it partly did because when I finished the … so I was at Manchester University studying sociology and I got the job. When I was finishing my degree I did a project on women and HIV, partly because my sister was HIV positive, which in 1988 was like a terminal diagnosis, and she set up a self-help group for women who are HIV positive and as part of my dissertation I interviewed the women from the group which was amazing, you know when something big happens in your life, you’re like, “I’ll just interview everybody, that will make it better.” And that was my dissertation. And then I got invited to be the research assistant on this project because 5 151 152 153 154 155 they got the funding from it. So the study then happened and at the end of it I went to London afterwards and got a job at somewhere called the Sex Education Forum, which still runs, it had just been set up then, so I kind of saw my job was to do exactly that - tried to put it into action, so I did like 10 years’ work with them, lobbying and making resources and things like that, a lot of it based on that research, really that was the rocket underneath me. 156 157 158 One of the findings of the research project was it’s not really just information that people need, they need the chance to talk about power and inequality and question ideas about what’s natural and all those kind of difficult things that you need to talk about in detail. 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 AR: In 1988 I was working with a group of girls like this and for me, those pamphlets, they were published, the research papers were published as little purple pamphlets, I think I brought some the first day, and for me they were the first time I had read other people doing work around the kind of things the women were talking about, so particularly there was one you did about negotiating and about pleasure and about people enjoying sex. Most girls are told, “Don’t do it, it’s awful, you’re going to die,” or whatever. So for me this was really liberating because it was what I was doing anyway, but then somebody else … you know it kind of legitimised what I was doing, I suppose that’s the word, so for me these pamphlets were really extraordinary at the time because there was nothing around saying that kind of thing it was all very - 168 169 170 171 Also was a very right-wing Conservative government, so they’d done Section 28. Sexual politics were exciting, (inaudible; background noise 00:21:36) and there was a big gap between what young people or political people thought and what the official establishment thought. It made lobbying and activism fun around it. 172 173 174 Because I worry about that as a young person going into academia, how I can make it impactful and how I can make it actually have some sort of, like, bridging that gap if you like, between the academic world (inaudible; background noise 00:22:07)- 175 176 177 178 Mostly it’s you, it’s kind of you, you’ll be the thing and if you join up different bits of the world that you care about then I feel like there’s a whole agenda in universities now about impact, but that’s the worst possible thing, it’s like that’s become part of the business. But the reality is if you really care then you will make something happen about it. 179 180 181 182 AR: But you’ve done some really interesting work here with the interviews LUCY [youth worker] around, you know there’s been some interesting stuff come up, I know you feel that we could have used them in different ways which is really helpful but do other people feel that there have been things that have been interesting? 183 184 185 186 187 Definitely. I like reading the interviews and I don’t know if this is related to you or not, but we have, like, zines put out on the table and stuff and I thought it was really interesting looking at them because it sort of portrayed how much radical feminism has sort of progressed over the years, like, it’s quite different now to how it was and I don’t know whether that’s a good or bad thing to be honest, but it was amazing to see how women were lobbying for change. 188 Do you identify as feminists? 189 Yes, definitely. 190 Do you think other people do; is that unusual? 6 191 192 193 194 I think it’s changed quite a lot, especially over the past 5 years or so, and I think I personally, and this is quite a controversial opinion, but I personally think it’s lost its meaning a little bit. I think what women were fighting for back then is a lot more important than what people are fighting for now, and that is a controversial opinion and I’m so aware of that. 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 I was just reading an interview with a girl that I did 30 years ago before I came up here actually, some things I lose and then I just found it, and she was talking about, because the time of AIDs it was really seen as a closing down and she was saying, “We’ve only just got the chance to be able to do what we want to do and have fun as women,” because I guess it’s always the first generation after the expectation that you would be married early, this is for a particular group of women, working class, probably Catholic, young women in Manchester. And she says, “And now this happens, now this disease is there.” I think there was a real view at the time that HIV was going to, you know there was James Anderton, do you remember James Anderton, he was the Police Chief who basically said, “This is divine retribution. This is God’s way of punishing the homosexuals and the feminists for getting uppity.” And there was that real sense where it felt like it was the end of everything actually, but weirdly now if you look back at it you think actually it was the beginning of everything. 207 Feminism is complicated isn't it, there’s different kinds, it’s almost like a badge or a style. 208 209 210 It’s really complicated, I think there needs to be more emphasis on equality and there’s not; I think sexual politics is quite important and that’s not talked about enough. We as women, some feminists are making us quite sheltered and I don’t believe that’s the right way to go about it. 211 Give me an example. 212 213 214 215 I don’t know, I think there’s quite a lot in feminism at the moment on sex workers and if they are good or bad, and the majority feel like sex work is a bad thing and it shouldn’t be allowed and it’s derogatory for women, but I feel like actually … I’ve read some stuff in the zines that says, actually, this is not the case. 216 217 218 219 220 But this was the issue in the 80s: pornography, women divided really massively over porn, like whether a pleasure, and also around sex work, so there was the pro-sex feminists who were alright with porn and solidarity with sex workers and maybe mixed a bit more, sort of more queer, what we would think of as queer, and then there was a more kind of politically correct version that was more separatist. 221 222 223 Political correctness has sort of infiltrated feminism to the point where it’s sort of lost its meaning. I think the world now, we’ve got a divide now where people are either really politically correct or really forthright and I don’t think that’s okay. 224 I would agree. 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 It’s like feminism has become very, very radical where people just assume feminism means women are better and women are superior and women deserve everything better than men, but for me it’s about gender equality, including every single gender, and that’s what feminism is. When women came out first it was just women were being a lot more lower than men were but as the world has gone on we’ve realised male and female are not the only genders and it’s about all gender equality, and that’s what feminism is and that’s what I call myself for; if I am going to call myself a feminist it’s because I want equality for all genders, not just women to be superior, because no-one’s superior, we are all the same. 7 232 233 234 235 My mum, she doesn’t call herself a feminist and I asked her why and she said, “I’m not all about that.” I could tell she’s not a radical feminist, she believes that we’re all … actually it’s a bit more complicated because I’ve got my whole culture coming into the gender stereotypes and everything, but feminism is about equality, people keep forgetting. 236 237 238 But you’re also saying different genders, which one of the issues I think with a 70s-80s feminism at the moment is that some of it is pretty transphobic or not able to extend the argument in the way that you’re describing, so that’s a real big issue at the moment it feels like, generationally. 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 And also, how GEMMA was saying how it would change and it’s, like, it should continue passing forward, interview people now, but in this table circle I feel like we already have 3 different generations. So even if you ask all of us my answers might be different from AMY’s answers because AMY’S still in school, but I was in school quite a few years ago so your sex education was a bit different from mine probably, but my little sister’s sex education already seems very different from mine and she’s only, like, 6 years younger than me. I think it would be worth to ask my generation these questions again and then I feel like there still won’t be much difference and that still shows that nothing has been done, and that’s where the change comes. But then you do it again with a different generation and I still feel like you still will see no difference. 248 So what do you feel the issues are at the moment around unfairness or where the problems are? 249 250 251 252 253 254 I think relationship education in general isn't equal, like between those who are heterosexual, those who identify as a different sexuality and for those who identify as a different gender than they were assigned at birth. I, today actually, had a tutorial session at college and it was about relationships and every single thing was like: do you think your boyfriend should have control of you? Images were of a man and a woman holding hands and I was sat there, like, not talking because this doesn’t apply to me one bit. Even it’s 2019, that’s my college, that’s a brand new PowerPoint created this year for us. 255 Did anyone challenge it? 256 257 I was, like, I’m going to doodle, this is nothing to do with me. She ignored me and I started doodling for the next 45 minutes. 258 Did any of the other students challenge that or the assumed heterosexuality? 259 260 261 262 There was, from obviously what I know there was me and (inaudible 00:31:33) lesbian, there was this other girl and she identifies as bisexual and then the only lad in the class identifies as gay, so for those 2 the terms of just ‘boyfriend’ still correlated with the way they experience relationships, so I was the only one that I know of who was like, ‘what?’. 263 You can easily change things but you’re not. 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 And then just being ignored when I go, “Nothing to do with me. Bye. I’m distracted now.” The stuff that they were talking about, because they were talking about things like controlling and sexual abuse and emotional, different sorts of abuse that can happen in relationships and that’s still relevant to me massively, but because they use that term, because my identity was not even considered and when I voiced my concern it wasn’t recognised, I was like, “Whatever then, I’m not listening,” I should have still listened probably, but it just made me feel segregated and made me feel like I’m not important enough to teach this sort of thing too. 271 It’s hard to identify with what’s being said. I’m never going to have a boyfriend. 8 272 I had a boyfriend when I was 7 – never again! 273 274 275 276 277 278 In high school the closest I got to sex education was: dick go in vagina, that’s it, that’s how you make a baby. I left high school last year and we got no education on anything even remotely queer, but the first half of the documentary, twice, maybe three times actually, of homophobia against gay men in football; homophobia against gay men in football is much different to just the casual homophobia because there was genuinely straight as a stick, under that was a banana, I did not relate to any of my peers. 279 280 Do you think schools are a space for … I mean one of the interesting questions is about how much schools are ever going to be able to do in this area? 281 It’s never going to change and I don’t know how. 282 I suppose it’s sometimes are schools safe enough spaces to do proper work in? 283 284 285 286 287 There’s also a lot of problem with the society around it. Education is really important but it’s not delivered very well, or not delivered so I could relate or I could understand what was being said, or even that I would remember because most of the stuff I know is from random things. So, school could definitely be a lot better but there’s also so much societal things that can’t be changed immediately or through a construction like school, but it could be more awareness, I guess. 288 289 AR: I suppose what I’m interested in having been involved in this project a little bit is whether you think looking at the interviews made you think about these things or not? 290 Reminded me. 291 292 293 AR: I’ve been working with a few other projects and that’s what they’ve all said, the things that are raised in the interviews more or less, I know we haven't looked at them all but they resonate with you because it’s like, ‘oh yes, this was my experience as well’. 294 295 296 I knew it hadn’t changed because of a conversation with my mum but this (inaudible; background noise 00:36:42). My mum is a lesbian so I say we’re an open house, I don’t think we are, she represents as an open house but I don’t agree with it. I forgot what I was going to say then. 297 To make your generation change. 298 299 My mum went to an all Catholic school and I went to an all-girls school; where we had conversations about it, it linked up, but with these interviews I didn’t notice until when we were doing the interviews. 300 301 302 303 304 305 I wonder whether one of the things that has changed most in this period is technology, if you think about the dramatic changes in 30 years. I see 2 dramatic changes: 1) is, and we were talking about this earlier on, when I went to college there was 8%-9% of young people went to university and now it’s almost 50% and a lot of that increase is girls as well, so that’s one big change. And then the other one is the internet, you were saying you learn about sexuality, any question you might have, you ask the internet or community you will find on the internet. 306 307 308 309 310 (Inaudible 00:38:25) because mum really told me about it before I could find out anything, so I wasn’t (inaudible; background noise 00:38:29) learning too much, seeing too much and was too much for me, so I think that’s where the whole parental guidance, it’s like you need to start acknowledging that sexualities exist, more than just male and female, that all of this still exists. You need guidance. No matter what, they can’t stop you from asking the internet, like, eventually you can find a way around it, 9 311 312 313 314 it’s easy to get to the internet. If you try and stop the child from going and finding the stuff out, they’re going to find out, and they’re finding out too much for them, or the wrong thing. So if you guide them and actually accept the fact that they’re going to find out anyway, and if you guide them and help them through it then they know (inaudible; background noise 00:39:51) so it’s just acknowledging that exists. 315 316 317 The school could do that, or pastoral system in school could do that. The problem with schools is they have a real problem with the internet, don’t they? The most blocked place that exists is the school, you can almost get access to nothing in terms of online at school because they’re terrified. 318 319 320 321 Me and my friend were doing, in high school we were doing a cooking lesson so we had to plan a lesson and basically take pictures, we typed in butter knife, the butter knife was blocked; we wanted to get a picture of a butter knife, we couldn’t get a picture of a butter knife. We had to get it emailed and we had to copy and paste it. 322 323 If you think, then, that everybody has got access to the internet and no-one is really taking responsibility for supporting them in relation to that infinite knowledge. 324 When I was at school it was gradually getting blocked as years went past. 325 I think it’s now almost entirely, which is kind of crazy. 326 327 Like, in Year 7 you could go on Facebook at my school but now you can’t. Loads of people created their Facebook account in Year 7. 328 329 You shouldn’t have Facebook in Year 7 so that’s fine that is blocked; you’ve got to be 13 to have Facebook, you’re only 11 in Year 7. 330 But they were lying about their age. 331 Before Facebook was allowed. 332 333 Can you tell me a bit more about learning too much, what that means, or finding out too much or being overwhelmed, because that’s really interesting? 334 335 336 337 I can’t personally remember, but for example a young kid, if they search up maybe a few words they might be presented with porn and that’s way too much for a young person on the internet. Or just maybe things they’re not ready for, I can’t think of an example, but there are things that you find too much about. 338 339 340 One time I looked up this cartoon that I was really into at the time on a school computer, with filters, and on the top bar, right to the left, one of the characters, a child, was literally child porn of this character. I really, really, didn’t want to see that. 341 But did you look anyway because you’re a child and you’re curious? 342 343 I looked at it but I did not want to. Basically, I researched hoping that the filters would just re-set the thing and I was like, thank God. 344 So sex education is still an issue basically. 345 346 347 AR: Everywhere I’ve been I’ve heard exactly the same thing. I naively think it’s 2019, everyone is learning wonderful things, but they’re not. I just assume, in fact I think probably 40 years ago we had more sex education in a way, it’s as though people have become more10 348 But we can discuss it now anyway, you don’t need to tell them. 349 350 AR: Your point about people can look up sex education, but you don’t know what they’re getting, do you? 351 352 One of the other things we’ve noticed going round is that because teenage pregnancy is not such a problem now in that there’s less numbers- 353 354 I think social media has a part to play in that because you can date someone from across the world and still talk to them, you can date someone and actually, like, only see them once a month. 355 Someone. Are we talking about bestiality here? 356 No. 357 358 359 I think social media (inaudible; multiple speakers 00:44:40) the levels of teenage pregnancies we see because of the way in which the people can communicate from miles away or from right next door and not actually have to talk to each other. 360 361 362 One of the things I wonder when I’m looking at this and all these groups and people hanging out and nightclubs, people hanging out, is there less actual face-to-face contact now than there used to be 30 years ago? 363 364 365 I think that’s really interesting. I used to think that however, I’ve met loads of people through social media and then met up with them, so I think it can be like a way to do that, more accessible, like for example I met my current partner online. 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 I’ve also noticed that especially my age group, I’m 17, almost 18, and some of my mates turn 18 and they don’t go out drinking, we don’t go out partying, we don’t go out drinking; once a year we might have a house party and get drunk together and that’s, like, it but most of us go out, if we do leave the house we go and have a coffee or something so we don’t put ourselves in a position as often from my friendship group and the people that I’m friends with and I know and stuff, not just autistic people, neurotypical people as well, we don’t do the whole ‘go out drinking, get drunk and put ourselves in a vulnerable position’ as often as previous generations might have. 373 Is there a generational divide here? 374 I used to do that but I don’t like alcohol that much. 375 376 I think there are more people my age going out, getting drunk, going clubbing and stuff like that than there are people in their 20s. 377 And your age is? 378 16. 379 380 381 382 383 I’m 17 and I turn 18 end of January, that’s the thing though, like, my birthday is on a Monday so I’ll be coming here and then one or two of the older ones, like ALICE mainly, is going to take me out for my first adult drink and we’re going to have one and then go home. And then my birthday party with my family we’re going to a pizza place and then we’re going to the pub for a drink and then going home, I’m not going out binge drinking. 11 384 385 386 Maybe it’s really uneven so there will be some young people who will be doing a lot of intense partying – your crew – and then there may be other young people who aren’t drinking at all or it’s much more online and networks or something. 387 388 I think I do it to compensate for something because obviously I spent a lot of my high school years in hospital, and locked away, so now I’m out of hospital I’ve gone a bit mad. 389 390 391 392 393 But then at the same time I spent a lot of my high school years in hospital, a lot of my high school years segregated and I just feel like, for example I’m friends with 3 neurotypical people the same age as me and when we talk about alcohol everyone’s like, “Whatever.” Going out and stuff like that and they’ve not had any additional problems than I have had, but it’s still a bit of a culture of ‘alcohol, sort of, makes you lose yourself’. 394 395 396 I think that’s just tit for tat isn't it, because when I was young I wasn’t a drinker but all my other friends were, I think that’s just about personality because there will be schools in other area where a lot of the kids at 16 are drinking. 397 And how young your parents introduce alcohol. 398 I found with my friends, what I found from the people that I know- 399 Your survey of your friends. 400 401 402 403 Of the 200 people that I’ve met who are around my age I think there’s more of a culture of, like, adults introducing alcohol in tiny amounts at a younger age, cos, like, my parents when I was 11-12, my dad would let me have a sip of his wine on a Saturday night and now I just don’t care, it makes me go all rough and stuff. 404 405 406 The more times you have bad experiences with alcohol you kind of want to do it less. There are repercussions the day after and you don’t feel good. I’m okay having a relaxing drink but when people go out and want to die it’s like, “No, it’s okay.” It’s not nice. 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 (Inaudible 00:49:45) contribution to the amount of alcohol a young person drinks is because it’s clear to see the news; young people have access to the news, young people have access to other people and their experiences and it affects you obviously, because if your mate has gone out, got drunk like in Manchester, been roofied and then been date raped or something like that, and then you’re just like, “Okay, I’m never getting drunk ever,” it’s a bit like that, because you’ve got access to other people your age who have experienced bad things and you don’t have to experience them yourself to be like, “I ain’t doing that, thank you.” 414 It puts you in a very vulnerable position. 415 416 417 418 419 420 I think that’s why maturity comes into play though because I consider myself quite mature but I’ve had quite a few bad experiences when I’ve gone out drinking and it’s not gone quite to plan, but I would still, if somebody offered, I would still go out with them 100% and I think that’s where our maturity differs a bit, because you’re mature enough to know I’m vulnerable, I’m putting myself in a position there where I know something could go wrong, whereas I don’t think like that. I think I’m a bit more immature in that sense. 421 I don’t think it’s about being immature because I would be the same. 12 422 423 If I ask a question about sex, because one of the things I wonder sometimes, is sex less important these days than it used to be? 424 (Inaudible; multiple speakers 00:51:14)- 425 Who cares? 426 Who cares about what? 427 Sex! Some people. 428 429 Is it something you care about more as you get older maybe, or you understand more as you get older? 430 431 432 Personally I feel like there are loads of different ways how you can have kids now, but I personally think that it didn’t matter too much about sex because there are many different ways how to have a kid, you can have your own- 433 YW: So are you just equating sex with children, because that is a bit concerning? 434 That’s one of the things that I noticed in one of the youth things was sex was shown to have children. 435 Sex is fun but also- 436 It also puts you in a vulnerable position. 437 438 439 It also puts you in a vulnerable position, you’ve also got to be confident with yourself. Another thing that is going on in the world is a mental health crisis and lots of young people do not have the confidence in themselves or stuff like that to be able to, sort of, expose themselves in that way to another person. 440 441 YW: Also, young people are so insecure that they haven't got the skills to say no, so it’s kind of like a double-edged sword. 442 I think casual sex is a lot more okay now than it might have been in the 80s or whatever. 443 In terms of acceptable? What does okay mean? 444 445 446 Acceptable, but it’s still very male orientated, like, if a man goes out and has loads of sex and shags a load of girls that’s alright but as soon as a girl does it, or as soon as a girl speaks out about her pleasure, she’s considered a slut. 447 448 449 450 It’s interesting, I talked to some students the other week and they said in their halls of residence there’s a chart, like a star chart, a shag-o-meter, but that the girls and the boys both play the chart so it’s equal in terms of girls and boys both playing. So it’s a chart, it’s a competition, so the girls can be involved in the game too but the game is the game and what they were saying is- 451 What’s the game? 452 The game is having as many sexual partners as possible. 453 Different sexual partners rather than the times you have sex? 454 455 I’m not quite sure, I didn’t ask the detail there, but you know. I think it’s like conquests. What she said is that casual sex is kind of assumed and easy at some level but actually having a 13 456 457 458 relationship is more and more difficult, it was really interesting what she was explaining, which was it’s a really weird landscape where somehow this doesn’t matter at all and then it matters more and more so that the actual relationship matters more and more and that it’s too difficult. 459 460 So sex is just for pleasure; relationship sex is like, “We’re going to see each other after this so I hope it’s good.” 461 How do you get from one to the other? 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 YW: I think as well, when I was growing up in the 80s, when I was young, sex was harder to get than it is now, so when you’re 18 in the 80s you kind of, like, go out and meet someone, even if you cop off on a one-night stand you’ve got to be physically out. Now I could just go on the internet and have someone come to my house, I don’t need to leave the house to find someone to have casual sex with, it’s that easy. I’m not saying that I do, Ali! So it’s easier to get casual sex now but I think because of social media people are not quite sure what a relationship is, because there is so much that they should be doing or they should know that it’s just a minefield of ‘what is a relationship’. 469 470 471 I am saying more for, like, the women I’m around, especially ‘cos of, like, romantic films that are so unrealistic, it’s only when you don’t get that you’re like ‘my relationship isn't good’, do you know what I mean, like, when you don’t get that like that movie. 472 473 Yeah, they text me first thing in the morning - aww! If they haven't text me, they don’t love me, it’s that sort of concept. 474 475 476 The conversation we’re having about casual sex, it’s really different here because my mum and (inaudible 00:56:51) went to China for a holiday and there was a conversation about sex and they said that they don’t have (sl. one night stands 00:57:05). 477 In China? 478 Yes. There’s a lot of them. 479 I wouldn’t go round going, “Oh mum, dad, I had a shag last night.” 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 One of the other things that we talked about the other day which I thought was really interesting and didn’t seem to change since the 80s was how you learn about pleasure and whether it’s possible to learn about pleasure any other way than doing it, like learning from experience. And then one of the real problems is often young people, they may not be heterosexual but often their first sexual experiences, early sexual experiences are heterosexual, that they are learning sex or the lucky ones who are wise, but then there’s a whole process of not really learning about your whole body that goes on, so learning about somebody else’s body and how do people learn about pleasure? 488 Masturbation. 489 490 But that’s so frowned upon for girls, you can’t do that. You never see girls doing that, it’s always lads doing it, it’s something that lads do, it’s never something girls do. 491 Masturbate? 492 Yeah. 14 493 And if you do see it in films it’s either 4 men or it’s like a funny thing. 494 495 When I’ve always seen it it’s always been a big thing and romantic thing. The more (inaudible 00:59:32) about casual sex- 496 I was talking about masturbating. 497 498 499 500 501 What you were saying about casual sex is interesting because it feels like it never will be an option for me to have casual sex; I was like (inaudible 00:59:48) never talked to in your life and stuff like that, I couldn’t meet up with someone online and I’ve never seen them before and I’m not 100% sure that they’re the person they’re saying they are, so stuff like Tinder and stuff like that wouldn’t be an option, so I would have to go out. 502 503 504 505 506 I’ve met a few people online and me and my mum talked about it, which I’m really lucky I can talk to her about stuff, but it’s like, “You tell me where you’re going, what you’re doing, what time you’re getting there and what time you’re leaving. Meet in a public place,” and these safety steps that make it accessible for you to meet people who are like, “You’re cool, I probably talk to you on Instagram, I would like to meet up but let’s do it in a safe way for both of us.” 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 I feel like for me personally, my mum, if I mentioned the fact that I was meeting someone from online she would say no, so I wouldn’t even be able to go with, “I’m going to be here at this time, I will call you at this time.” I would have to actually secretly do it so because I’m already secretly doing it, I’m already in danger and the fact that it’s someone I don’t even know anyway and stuff like that. Not even for myself because I’m older now, I’m mature and I understand, but even for my younger sister she’s going to have loads of things she wants to do but even my younger sister she’s not really allowed any social media, she can only WhatsApp from my mum’s phone so our household is quite strict and strict on that kind of stuff and that, but there is also the fear that what if she ends up trying to do something because she wants to go and experience what other kids experience? Because there’s a whole, like, alcohol talk and going out, I’ve never done that, and personally I would like to experience that but I also know how bad it can get, so I’ve never experienced it and I’m lucky that I haven't ever experienced anything so bad but there is still the curiosity about what if I go and do it? I want to try. 519 I’ll come out with you, I’ll be your mum friend. 520 No, don’t go out with her. 521 522 I would be so uncomfortable going out with someone that is younger than me; I have 3 younger siblings, I am responsible for all of them, when someone is younger than me I instantly feel responsible. 523 524 525 I think there’s this concept of age that always confuses the hell out of me because age, the way I see it, I’ve always been quite mature, I’ve always got on with people older than me, one of my closest friends is 58, I’m not even joking, we go shopping and we have lunch together and it’s so lovely- 526 YW: Why is a 58 year old hanging out with a 17 year old? I would question that. 527 No, she’s a secretary from my primary school- 528 YW: That's even more worrying! 529 530 531 She’s also a family friend; she’s known my family for about 20 years but I’ve always been friends with her and then as I’ve got older, I call her my adoptive aunt but I’ve always got on with people much older than me, so I think age for me is something that’s a massive social construction because obviously 15 532 533 534 535 536 there’s a number, there’s how many years you’ve been alive which is then linked with all these laws and legislation, but it’s also about that individual and their cognitive ability, their understanding, which shows their maturity and I feel like when people are like, nothing against you obviously because that’s how you feel, but when someone’s like, “Oh, I couldn’t hang out with someone who is a year younger than me, they’re such a child.” I’m like, “But it depends on their maturity.” 537 538 539 540 YW: It’s not always about maturity is it, because? I know you’re mature but I couldn’t hang out with you, not because you’re not mature, because that age difference, our life experiences are different so we can sit there and have a chat but actually what have I got in common with you apart from a few things? 541 542 543 544 If you think about the 80s that was the time when age differences were less critically looked at than now, so there’s examples in this study where there’s maybe a 16 year old young woman and a very mature man and now we’d look at that and we would think “Oh!” But then we might have thought, “Oh!” but we didn’t necessarily … something changed. 545 546 547 In 1977-ish, my nanna was 17, my grandad was 27, they had a kid together and it was just, like, go and get a house, go and live wherever. But now I’m 17, if I dated a 27 year old and we went and moved out and got a house, the law would be like, “Oh my God, what’s going on? We need to protect this child.” 548 549 550 I think a lot of it gets called grooming now, so that’s a new word really. When I was younger that phenomena has always existed of older men and younger women, older men would drink and have money and young women wouldn’t have either, but it didn’t have that name. 551 552 553 554 YW: When I were young we used to walk past a house and go, “That’s where Pervy Pete lives,” or whatever, we didn’t know but it was just rumours, now you would know where your local paedophiles are because you find them on the internet, but back in the day a person could have been innocent but you’d be like, “No, he has kids in,” or whatever. 555 556 557 558 559 560 What you said about age gap, the thing is I feel like between 16 and 21, maybe 25, there’s so many generations within that one little age thing because me talking to a 16 year old, I can’t relate to that, they experience things completely different to me, even the way they talk, that’s a big generalisation. I’m 20 but, just, my sister is 14 so she’s part of that age gap but already there’s a big massive age gap between us even though it’s only 6 years so I couldn’t hang around with people younger than me because I’m at that age where I’m sort of just getting (inaudible 01:06:02) a bit. 561 So could you hang around with someone who was 26? 562 I feel like I could. 563 Would you not think they’re thinking, “I’m hanging around with a kid?” 564 That’s the thing, someone older than me will still think that about me. 565 I think that’s an individual argument. 566 567 The way I was brought up was to look after people younger than you and I’m like the oldest amongst many people. 568 569 570 I think it’s different people’s mind-sets as well because for example my brother is 14, there is 3 years difference between us and as we’ve grown up together I’ve been through a lot of shit. We’re literally friends now, there’s still 3 years between us, even me and my cousin, she’s like 10, we get on really 16 571 572 573 574 well. I’ve been through so much in my life already, I’m only 17 but these past 7 years the difference between me and her treated me so badly that I can understand her position and then I can also understand positions of people who are in their 30s or whatever, and it all depends on the individual themselves because me and my cousin are going Christmas shopping and we can have a lovely day. 575 576 577 578 579 I can understand where my sister is coming from sometimes because I’ve been through that and I know your parents because they’re my parents, I know what you’re going through because I’ve been through that same thing, it sucks and I know that, and I can help in that time. But I don’t want to hang around with a person younger than me that’s still in school and listen about school, I want to hang around with someone that’s not in school and has a different life. 580 581 582 583 584 YW: It’s really interesting about that age thing because there comes a point in your life where you just don’t, age doesn’t matter. On Saturday night I was counselling someone who wanted to commit suicide, they were 29 with 4 kids, it didn’t matter that age gap, I’m old enough to be their mum, it didn’t matter. I wasn’t looking at her as, “Bloody hell, you’re just a kid.” I was thinking, “This grownup woman needs my support.” So there was a big age gap, it didn’t matter. 585 I think it’s different in the fact that you’re trying to- 586 No, I would anyway because she’s a grown up woman and she’s got a kid same age as me. 587 In the context of more of a hanging out thing but if it was talking to someone and helping them- 588 589 590 591 YW: I would go out for a drink with her because I see her as another adult. I don’t see her as, “You’re only 29, God.” I just see her as a grown up adult so I think you get to an age where age doesn’t matter because you’re adults and there’s shared experiences. When you’re young 4 or 5 years does feel like a long time. 592 I don’t feel like it does at all. 593 So you would hang out with 12 year olds and think you were connected fine? 594 Yeah. 595 That would piss me off, sorry. 596 597 598 599 600 601 602 No because I feel like if you’ve got, obviously I wouldn’t go and date a 12 year old, that’s disgusting, but in the sense of friendship if you’ve got something in common, if you get on well, if you’re friends, like, it doesn’t matter if you’re 50 or 12 or 10, like me and my cousin, she’s 10, we’re friends, we’re not cousins, we’re not just like, “You’re blood I have to tolerate you,” it’s we’re mates, we hang out, we talk about different things. I explained to her about what LGBT stuff because she asked me and we have that proper friendship; 7 years between us, almost 8 years between us but she’s just another person, she’s had less experiences than me. 603 604 What do you actually think a friendship is? To me that would feel like I am just helping that person and it feels like I’m more of a mentor. 605 Maybe that’s because you had family responsibilities. 606 I do think it’s cultural upbringing is my belief. 607 You’re responsible. 17 608 609 I’ve always grown up with ‘respect your elders’ kind of thing and that’s a big part of my background and culture and stuff like that. Age plays such a big thing in culture, like in my everyday life. 610 611 612 613 614 615 616 617 I think it’s really interesting that you’re saying this because when I’ve been out and stuff, I make it seem like I go out a lot more than I do. When I go out and stuff there’s been times when I first started going out where I wouldn’t tell people my age because obviously if you’re somewhere and you’re drinking you don’t want to be like, “I’m 16. I’m 15. I’m underage.” Actually I’ve got on fine with 20-26 year olds, 24 year olds, 30 year olds because they would be under the impression I’m 18 but if I told them I was 16 they would immediately get this view like this is really weird, like I shouldn’t be talking to them because they’re looking up to me. I think if you didn’t know my age and this might be different or if you didn’t like AMY’s age I think maybe it would be a bit different. 618 619 Definitely. I think once you find out it’s like wait, hang on; but sometimes I can also tell anyway just from how they act. 620 621 When I meet new people, like, I don’t ask their age, I go, “Oh, hi.” If I’m, like, creating a friendship with someone I’m just, like, “You’re cool,” we like the same sort of thing we get on well. 622 623 If I met someone and had lots in similar and then they told me they were like 16 I would be like, “Oh wow.” 624 Would you (inaudible; background noise 01:11:51)? 625 626 627 628 629 No because then I’ve already established that friendship; if I already knew I would be like this is a bit uncomfortable for me, I don’t know how to go about it, but if I’ve already got the friendship, like it’s not in real life kind of friendship but I have talked on Instagram and had things on common, when you find out the age they would be so much younger than you and you would be like ‘whoa’, but I wouldn’t stop talking to them then. 630 631 632 633 634 635 636 So this has all happened in the last 30 years as well, the whole age of consent being, you know, codified and made equal, really criminalised as well when they made the age of consent equal which was a bit of a historic moment and made it not just about heterosexual penetration, because it used to be that it was very unequal in how it’s imagined, let alone for men and women or you’re gay or straight. But they also did a big job around criminalising, breaking it, as well, whereas it was kind of, very rarely would anyone be prosecuted for having a sexual relationship with someone younger- 637 AR: For instance, the age of consent in Spain is 12. It doesn’t mean people are having sex. 638 I watched a film- 639 640 641 The age of consent in Japan being 13, it’s more province based almost, so different areas have different sub-governments which each have their own laws surrounding sexual contact with minors and the age of consent. The average is about 16. 642 Some places don’t even have an age limit. 643 I think there’s like 3 countries. 644 Some countries will be like ‘no sex before marriage’. 645 AR: I think the whole thing about criminalising it is really interesting. 18 646 647 648 649 But also the relationships between a youth worker or as a teacher and a pupil in the past; certainly when I went to school I remember there were always teachers who were going out with students, that was always known, but now that would be completely wrong and you would be sacked and possibly prosecuted, so that’s a really significant change. 650 651 652 653 654 I can relate to creating friendships with people younger than you and older than you because my sister’s 4 years older than me, she’s 28 and I’m 24, so there’s nobody younger in my family anymore. I have to relate if I’m talking to someone who is younger than me because I’ve been through some shit too, so if you talked like a 12 year old, “Wanna buy this Minecraft skin?” I play Minecraft but it’s not very often. But the mannerisms seem to be very hyper and loud. 655 I guess online people make relationships across age boundaries. 656 657 658 659 The whole ‘going through so much shit’ because I feel like I’ve been through a lot, so I think the protective in me comes out with kids. I’m like, “Why are you so serious, you should be more immature and have fun?” I always tell my sister, “You should not worry about this; go and have fun.” Because I’ve been through so much shit I’m like, “You shouldn’t need to…” 660 I think that’s being the oldest as well of siblings. 661 662 Can I just ask another question which is related, but then you say your answer which is, what makes you grown up now? Because back in the 80’s it was: job, house etc. 663 664 665 666 667 668 My cousin, I’m going back to her because she’s the one who is closest to my age; my other cousins are 7, 6 and 5, they can hardly talk, let alone communicate with me so I don’t get on with them that well, but she’s had struggles at school, we’re pretty sure she’s also on the spectrum, like she’s 10 and she’s been through a lot of shit already just like I had at 10, and obviously I’ve been through more than her but I don’t feel like I need to protect her because I’m like, “I’ll give you a bit of advice, love, but I’m hopeless at it as well. Let’s just go and have fun together, let’s just get on well.” 669 Pain changes you. 670 It’s very interesting about what makes you age. So what makes you grown up? 671 I feel like for me I’m 22. 672 Ancient, then. 673 674 675 676 677 678 679 680 I think in your head you never really feel grown up but I think for me, I guess what you could say could classify as being grown up because I’m never going to own a house any time soon, I’m never going to afford it, but I think for me it will be having more of a full control over your life and the decisions you make, I think that’s, like, the biggest one, because obviously when you’re younger there are other people like your parents, your carers, whatever, making the decisions for you; tell you what to do, what you wear, whatever, so getting more grown up is when you start making those decisions for yourself and taking responsibility for them I guess, like being more responsible about what you’re doing and actively seeking out to do those things because you want to do them. 681 682 683 684 If we’re talking about it in that sense then I’ve always had the most control in my household, it might be an autism thing but I’ve always controlled what I’ve worn since I’ve probably turned 14, controlled what I’ve worn, what I’ve done. I make decisions for myself and I’ve always been super-independent; obviously being autistic and also having other conditions put a limit on the stuff you can do for yourself, 19 685 686 687 688 689 690 like, massively. But I feel quite grown up; I probably do sound like a baby but I’m 17 and I do all these amazing things, like I’ve made the decision for myself to come to youth groups and be in a safe space, I’ve made decisions for myself to do youth combined authority stuff, to get into politics, to do climate change stuff. I’ve done so much in the past 2 years that was all my choice, I took the responsibility, things have gone tits up, things have gone awful but it’s never been anyone else’s fault, it’s been within my control. 691 692 I feel as well, you would feel more mature if you work more because the stresses of a job, it’s a lot to take on and then the ways that you have to (inaudible 01:19:26). 693 694 There’s also an accessibility thing though because I have Tourette’s, I couldn’t get a job, I’ve tried to get a job. 695 It’s only one aspect. 696 697 698 699 I’ve got Tourette’s syndrome and the second you say anything like autism or Tourette’s or something, I’ve gone for interviews and I’ve been given trial shifts and then I’ve been given the job and then once I’ve got the job, “Oh by the way, I’ve got Tourette’s syndrome and autism.” And they’re like, “Okay,” and then I’ve been given no shifts, which is against the law. 700 The thing as well you’re only 17 so it’s not like this has happened, in 5 years’ time you’ll be confident. 701 You could be running the country in 5 years’ time, I wouldn’t worry about it. I have no doubt. 702 If the revolution hurries up it will be faster than that. 703 What will the revolution be like? 704 We just go to all of the (sl. bourgeoisie 01:20:33) and we eat them; we eat the rich. 705 706 707 When I was 15 I thought I knew it all, and in my head I thought I am grown up and forgetting my parents, I’m not going to listen to them because I know best and it’s only now, as an adult I look back and I think, oh my God, it was naivety that made me feel like that. 708 709 YW: Absolutely, I think when you leave school at 16, you’re 16, you’ve left school, I know it all, but I knew diddly-squat. 710 711 712 When I look back like some of the things like, you know, drinking, doing things you shouldn’t be doing, I think I was a child, I should not have been doing that, but at the time I’m like, “No, I’m an adult.” Whereas it’s only when you look back as an adult you think oh my good God. 713 YW: If only my parents knew how vulnerable I made myself. 714 715 716 717 718 719 I said I’m independent but then I ask my mum about everything, like I would double-check and I’m like, “Okay, so, this has happened. I’m planning on doing this. Is this okay?” And she’s like, “Yeah, go for it, that’s what I would do.” And I think it’s because I’ve learnt her way of looking at things and her maturity – she’s 41 years old but I’ve learnt how she does it and that’s made me more mature. She doesn’t drink when she goes out, well she does, but she more drinks in the house, I always looked up to her for how- 720 YW: Let’s have an evaluation. 721 Thank you very much. 20 722 723 724 YW: Let’s do the evaluation: whilst we’ve been together, one thing we have learnt from the past 5 weeks doing this project, one thing we’ve learnt that we’re going to take away with us? I’m going to start with AMY. 725 726 727 728 729 I have learnt that sadly things haven't changed as much as they have in the last 30 years; I think there was a lot of restrictions put on by Section 28 and the fact that it didn’t get abolished until the noughties, so I think that massively had an impact on how we haven't been able to evolve as much as we needed to. It’s sad for me to see that the era that my mum grew up in had very similar circumstances, similar education than the one that I’ve grown up in and I’m still growing up in. 730 GEMMA? 731 732 733 734 735 Yeah, I’d agree, like, I’ve learnt that the issues that women faced then are sort of the same now but I think I’ve also learnt that it can actually be quite powerful and empowering to talk with people who are in a similar position to yourself as a young woman, because I feel like we’ve talked about some really deep things over the last few weeks and that’s been really nice to sort of know that you’re not on your own with these things if that makes sense, I feel like that in itself can be quite empowering. 736 737 I’ve learnt that in some ways living in the 80s was really bad, especially as a young woman with lesbianism, who are gay and bisexual, but I’ve also learnt that in some ways it was better than it is now. 738 739 740 741 742 743 Can I just say from just the conversation with you guys today I feel like I’ve learnt loads that I would like you to think about and especially the conversation about age actually, I think is really, really interesting, and experience, maturity, and I think there is something profoundly different about this world in the 80s and now, and it’s quite hard, it’s quite intangible to try and work out what it is, but I thought what you described was really interesting and I will think about it a lot and work on it. 744 745 YW: I’ve learnt that I loved growing up in the 80s and I know nothing’s changed because I’ve been through all those other decades since and I know nothing’s changed, but it will, some things will change. 746 To be fair you did have George Michael, like what could be better? 747 748 Today I did learn about how Manchester was just so big and protesting against Section 28, but yeah, I’ve really enjoyed looking at the articles from a long time ago from when I was born. 749 750 I learnt a lot; I don’t retain information very well, I have the memory of a goldfish. It’s just been nice to be here even if I haven't retained all of it. 751 YW: Even if you retained some that’s alright. Thank you. 752 753 I have confirmed that nothing has changed and I’ve also learnt that I actually have quite a lot to say on a lot of things. 754 755 I’ve also learned not much has changed which is bad because 2020 is in a few weeks, and we still haven't got flying cars and teleportation. 756 757 758 AR: On my final note I would like to say I’ve learnt loads; I like coming here on a Monday so I’ll probably just keep turning up. And without sounding really sentimental I think coming here just makes me feel- 759 Young? 21 760 761 762 AR: No, it doesn’t make me feel young, it makes me feel hopeful. It makes me feel hopeful because I think you’re all so interesting and thoughtful and thinking about things and I just think, “Wow, that’s it, the human beings are just going to carry on.” 763 YW: They’re a lovely group. 764 Thank you. 765 YW: Thank you for coming; thank you for bearing with us for the past 5 weeks 22 766 Images shared by Rachel with the group 767 23 768 24 |